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Author Topic: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?  (Read 28107 times)

Hills

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New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« on: February 05, 2009, 02:48:12 am »

 "New World Order"   a conspiracy or fallacy?

At least, we all agree it’s a hypothetical concept referring to the end of the reoccurrence or better put reincarnation of past events and goalages .
Day after day, I relentlessly struggle to balance this most controversial ideology as a fact of substance or a misgiving. Again, be it that the latter is behest, at whose and what injunctions?

But then I say to myself ,maybe my perspective is myopic, oh no wait a minute…maybe bias…or where am I coming from, without first-hand info, am I in any right position to comment? oh shit I’m tearing my brain apart

Is it all about the establishment of an autonomous world government, a crypto-politics world ruler ship, evolutionary audacity or what?

Nah nah nah, it’s fallacious. Here is another idea; maybe those guys ‘world leaders” basically act for their usual reasons, such as profit-seeking motives and institutionalized roles as elected officials

Yeah,I am back to there same position. Hey people, any ideas??????????


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Aussie Mike

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 07:21:39 am »

This reminds me of the book I've just finished "The Whole Truth" by David Baldacci.
I could't put it down and finished almost 550 pages in 1.5 days.

It talks about Perspective Management and and Arms dealer creating a perspective truth
to create a new cold war and New World Order between China and Russia.

Great book!
I'm happy to lend it but it must come back to me.

Let's face it though, there is a new world order and the US isn't as high as it thinks...
Looking at perception management, they aren'y scoring well there either...
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 07:24:31 am by Aussie Mike »
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Hills

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 02:57:45 am »

Yeah guys,

Starting to get out of the tumor. love to have a glance at your book Mike.

Nice one Tim ,it is evidently a bold-faced conspiracy. Ironically wrapping issues, thereby creating a frustrated dilemma. haha smart brainwashing scheme though

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think"Adolf Hitler,

 Guess this justifies the raison d’etre for

Quote
after all it was them who said the communists were bad and evil yet why would such a commie give an outlandish kind of people this trust of fortune.
now wasn't the government the ones who claim honor yet deceit not only towards their own people but the world
be crying to a country that they tell people lies about  ?>>>>  …Tim
Yeah come to think of it,

-the current global monetary crisis for example is all about control. Gains and loses are clearly orchestrated, manipulated and directed by a highly calculated scheme. They intend basically to institute a universal debt-based currency controlled by the International financiers and issued to individuals against biometric identification systems.

-Today religious sermons are based on a kinda pantheistic philosophy rather than divine or biblical supports

-Nowadays, we as individuals are becoming more and more subservient to the state.
Hear in Australia for example, farmers now require permission to farm the land they own,

how much deeper in a shit and fucked up can all this be
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 08:05:41 am by Hills »
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Aussie Mike

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 12:23:02 pm »

The crisis hasn't effected China as much as other large countries but the impact is still huge.
China's GDP has to increase by 5-7% just to hold the yuan value at it's current rate.
No mean feat. Of course things will get worse for China.  I know of many companies in dire straights and laying off many staff or paying the less just to survive.
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Hills

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 01:13:34 pm »

Yeah Kaibo,
Your high intellectual contribution and in-depth analysis on this issue is quite commendable and has act as a succor to my long nightmare  demarcation search between the principles of democracy and economocracy

I’m  still going through  the referred websites for first hand information. Won’t take me long though, but as you mention ,one thing  stands out clear


Quote
if the children of this "kosmos" were to suddenly awaken and were to suddenly be enlightened, then and only then does this present world system have hope. If not, then this present world system is all but doomed.

Nice job mate

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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2009, 03:17:36 pm »

Mostly in response to kaibo... since he seems to be having a debate against himself here...

Let me start by providing a background on my perspective of global economics behind the possibility for global governance.

Yes, I agree with you that the New World Order "conspiracy", as it has come to be called, is an absolute reality. The Bilderburg group, United Nations, G20 (G8, G2, GX) groups, and other secret/semi-secret societies (freemasons, Illuminati, etc.) all exist and play their individual parts in contributing to a global governing system that is constantly evolving. In order to approach any semblance of realization as to how the system works, a lengthly deconstruction is necessary.

The trick to judging the international political situation at any given moment is, first, to realize what events are taking place and then measure it against a thorough analysis of what the media and government of each individual state has to say bereft of all spin. To see through the twist of truth that governments and national media establishments place on the information released to the public is the key to understanding any global issue. In today's media- and entertainment-driven society, control of information is paramount. Secondly, you must objectively understand the political cultures of each political actor (states, corporations, international governmental organizations (IGOs), non governmental organizations (NGOs), etc), without a subjective judgment of whether that actor is good or evil.

In this world, good and evil are subjective labels placed haphazardly on opinions, persons and groups through the influence of religion. In order to make sense of the international political stage, you must be able to identify where these labels of intent are placed and separate them from the actual intentions behind human action.
In China, the heavily communistic system is in nearly complete control of information. Evidence to this is the 'TTTF' agreement among Western teachers. If you haven't heard of this, it stands for Taiwan, Tiananmen, Tibet and Fanguangdong (sp?) - the taboos of teaching anything in China. On all of these issues the Chinese government strongly controls what information it wants its people to be allowed to understand and process. For a more detailed synopsis of the current situation in Tibet, see The Economist at this link: http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=13358182&source=most_commented

Tibet is a prime example of a nation-state seeking self autonomy or sovereignty over its territory. Quebec in Canada, the Flemmish nation in Belgium, Kosovo, South Ossetia and Abkhazia in Georgia, Chechnya in Russia,... the list goes on. Since the World Wars, sovereignty has been a huge issue as the world undergoes a vast unwinding from the era of colonialism and imperialism. The latter half of the 20th century was a time of nationalistic independence movements across the face of the earth from South America, to Africa, to the Pacific. This era is slowly coming to an end, and the result is that where before the European nations ruled the globe with their vast naval armadas, colonial agendas, and strong grip on global trade, now regional powers are the major players.

The European Union was the preliminary test for the possibility of a credible, functioning regional body. The project is still in progress, but is faring tremendously well. The euro is a major international player in currency markets. Although there is an ongoing debate about the stability of the Union, in reality it would be tremendously difficult for any kind of unwinding to occur short of global war. The economies of the European states are so tightly intertwined that short of complete catastrophe, it makes no sense for any individual state to secede.

Other regional blocks are using the EU as a model. The Union of South African Nations, ASEAN, the African Union, the Arab League, the Pacific Union, and NAFTA are examples of other regional blocks in various stages of economic and political unification. Economic union across a larger geographic area makes tremendous sense; taking advantages of larger economies of scale, solidifying international trade, fostering cultural and political solidarity, and, most importantly, preventing widespread military conflict. The EU shows that the result is almost unanimous prosperity for all parties involved. Granted, some EU economies are struggling as a result of the financial crises, but they are far from failing.

Even if an economy fails, there is a semi-functioning global safety net in place to prevent the collapse of society - the IMF. See Iceland. The entire country was unhealthily over leveraged and after the banks defaulted, the government followed. Nevertheless, through inflationary monetary policy (to help pay off debt) and a little help from the international community and select other countries, the country still exists. It has taken a hard fall from its place as one of the most technologically sophisticated societies on the planet, and was regularly in the top 5 regularly in freedom, transparency, and quality of life rankings. Nevertheless, the world is progressing from colonialism, through imperialism (late 20th century / early 21st century) into global government.

Various IGOs are currently in place and play minor roles in facilitating an international community, but the United States of America, and the Bush administration in particular, has played a dominant role in impeding the progress of global governance and sustaining the era of imperialism. The "War on Terror" was spun by the United States government to be the ultimate counterattack to the attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon in 2001. An objective analysis of the 9/11 attacks immediately shows that the official story is contrived. Currently I strongly believe that the Bush administration knew that the attacks would happen and turned a blind eye, for a variety of reasons that can be found by searching for "9/11 conspiracy" on Google and digging for facts (Warning: avoid opinions, there are too many).

Whoever was the ultimate mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, the result was massive American military action in the Middle East. First, the destabilization of Afghanistan, which ultimately served to provide a cover (along with the myth of nuclear weapons) for the removal of Saddam Hussein's government. This served two main purposes: to assure Western control of the Iraqi oil fields and to sustain the dollar as the global reserve currency. If you do a little research you will find that ultimately the Iraqi government, which at first was a de facto U.S. puppet institution, gave all oil field contracts to Western oil companies. Additionally, Saddam Hussein was planning on opening an oil bourse in Iraq - a bourse is a market making institution like the NYSE, which deals only stocks - in which he would trade oil internationally in currencies other than the dollar. Mainly euros and yen. This would effectively end the dollar's hegemony over currency markets.

Following Bretton Woods, the dollar was pegged to gold and became the international reserve currency. The United States pretty much took everybody's gold and said "Look, we won the war, so this is how it's going to be." Nearly all international trade was denominated in dollars. The dollar as a currency enjoyed this unparalleled strength because people knew that if they wanted to convert their paper money into something real, they could go to the US government and demand gold. In 1971, the US closed the gold window. Basically, the Americans were worried that there would be a run on gold and everybody would want to claim their fair share. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough gold to satisfy the amount of dollars in circulation. The Federal Reserve had printed money to sustain the war in Vietnam and there was so much in circulation that if everybody tried to claim their gold, the US government would default.

Enter fiat money - paper money backed by the word of the government. Your money is worth something because the government says so. I could find a long list of quotes by famous scholars, financiers, economists and politicians who all say that a fiat money system is unsustainable, prone to massive volatility, open to corruption, and will inevitably fail. The method the U.S. has used since abandoning the gold peg has been constant deficit spending. For a complete and detailed description of how fiat money works visit www.chrismartenson.com and watch his powerpoint presentations. Since 1971, the US has financed all of its federal spending by going into debt. If it needs money, it sells treasury bonds. China owns some 1/3 of US treasury bonds, Japan owns a bunch, Saudi Arabia owns a bunch, American citizens own a whole lot, etc. Here's the kicker: the US never intends to repay these debts. Recent actions by the Federal Reserve have served as a definitive confirmation. Instead of allowing its over leveraged and poorly invested banks to fail following the debt and housing bubbles, the US government is giving them money to pay off their debts. In order to fund these "investments", the US is simply going further into debt by selling more treasury bonds and printing more money.

I can go on about the financial crises here, but we were discussing NWO. So... back on track...

By invading Iraq, the Bush administration singlehandedly destroyed the progress that Clinton had made towards fostering international community. Not only did, Bush & Co. destroy the American image of an international role model and leader, but they prevented progress towards the evolution of the global community. The UN was basically sidelined after it, led by France, refused to help the US on what was an unjust war based on a false assumption (nuclear/biological weapons). Following that event, the US stopped paying its dues, hamstringing the UN's already weak effectiveness. The UN became an institution that serves as an international forum and loudspeaker for human rights, that is all. During the recent Israeli incursions into Gaza (January 2009), the UN did nothing at all. A proposal by Libya to release a press statement condemning Israeli aggression was blocked by the US.

NATO, an organization created to counter Soviet aggression during the Cold War, is a terribly outdated institution that exists only as a tool for the U.S. Where before it was a forum for operational coordination between the Western powers, it is now merely a military alliance that the U.S. can use to tap its allies' armed forces in order to augment its own. Realistically, the organization serves no other purpose. At the moment, it is employed to "fix Afghanistan". For a country that is in dire need of diplomats, political direction and political unification, military strength is exactly what is not needed.

The IMF - all I have to say about the IMF is that the weighting system by which member countries have a voice is insultingly disproportional to any measure of influence other than political power. This is unfortunate considering the main benefactors from the existence of the IMF are developing countries, who end up not having any say at all. Sadly, the developed countries who control the purse strings are too stingy to provide amounts of aid that would effectively sustain developing economies and bring them out of poverty. For a peerless analysis of this issue read Jeffrey Sachs' "The End of Poverty" and "Common Wealth: Economics for a Crowded Planet".
After the financial crises plays out, it will take another year or two, the United States will no longer be a global power. This is based simply on the fact that the United States economy doesn’t produce anything of value. The US automobile industry, what was once a bastion of strength and American economic power, is a joke. Technology and telecommunications have been almost entirely outsourced. The American legacy abroad is Coca Cola, Walmart and McDonalds. You can’t sustain an economy off of branding, soft drinks, wholesale and fastfood. There has to be some heavy industry. There has to be some agricultural production. The US has run an account deficit (it has imported more than it has exported) for YEARS. This is evidence to its role as a consumer nation. Too bad it’s a consumer nation that has been completely financed by debt. Once those debts are due, and the government defaults, then we will see what happens.

Keep in mind that one sector where the US continues to excel is the defense sector. The US has the largest military in the world, and its defense companies are by far the most advanced. Will the US just allow itself to be relegated to a minor player in the global economy? How the US acts in the next four years will dictate which direction global governance will go and what powers rise to supplant the US as international leaders.

Getting back to the idea of NOW, I think that many forward-thinking politicians are very eager to continue development of global governance. In the ‘90s when the EU came together, we experienced a strong period of globalization and unification. 9/11 served as a sort of backlash against rapid globalization and we are now in a period of strong nationalization. Especially given the financial crises, countries more and more are resorting to protectionist measures to solidify national economies in order to move forward internationally on more stable footing. Like all movements, the idea of global governance has its ebbs and flows. And while high profile elected officials may use the term ‘global governance’, a very positive sounding peaceful phrase, we also have the counterculture that demonizes these political figures and harshly criticizes them for destroying liberties and freedoms.

I got news for you. Those liberties and freedoms aren’t destroyed because of New World Order. They’re destroyed because we allow our governments to pass laws restricting them and we do nothing. The vast majority of individuals on this planet care very little for their own national politics. They say they care, but when it comes down to it, the only thing they do is complain, criticize, and vote. They vote based on their interpretation of the media’s spun stories.  In the States it amused me to watch the entire election process this past year. It was entertaining that the media seriously gave McCain a fighting chance, and said he was going to come back, when it was clear that most people thought Palin was a joke and the chances of McCain falling deathly ill and the fate of our country being in the hands of an Alaskan bimbo governess were too high to take the Republican campaign seriously. Maybe even more hilarious: the fact that the media seriously considered McCain a legitimate shot at President after his campaign blunders.

Roughly 60% of the American public voted in the ’08 election. 40% of American DIDN”T VOTE. That’s disgusting. How could you have such disregard for your own government. The majority of Americans don’t understand politics, don’t understand government, and don’t understand democracy. After not voting, the majority of Americans go out with their friends and bitch, whine and moan about how their President his horrible or about how he’s fucking everything up.

With regards to “evil” dominators…etc. etc. … I hesitate to point fingers in such a way so hypocritically. You can’t demonize theocratic influence on governing systems while using theocratic terms like good and evil or right or wrong. I agree with your motive, just not your language, and I urge you to reconsider your words. Not everybody can agree on what is right or wrong or what is good or evil. Culture and society are so different that these ideas change from one person to the next. What we can agree on is what is right for society as a whole. We can agree on ‘peace’, ‘prosperity’, ‘equality’, ‘justice’. We can compromise on what is right or wrong.

One thing that does need to change is criticism. It is commonplace for people to point fingers at others and say “I think you are wrong because of x, y and z.” The term constructive criticism has almost completely lost meaning. And what’s worse, popular culture encourages everyone to have an opinion. When everyone has a different opinion, nothing gets done. Everyone just points fingers at each other, saying why they think everybody else is wrong and why they are right. Nothing gets done. Most internet chat rooms are prime examples. Someone tries to say something intelligent, but then is ripped apart by a bunch of people who can’t read or write, butcher the English language by replacing ‘you’ with ‘u’, inserting numbers into words seemingly at random to replace letters, and ultimately don’t have anything to contribute to a real conversation or debate.

I made a handful of large conceptual leaps in this post, while trying to address all the points I had in mind. I’m a bit tired now, as it is midnight and I need some rest, but let me know what needs clarification.

Hopefully we can have a real debate in this forum.

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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 02:15:26 pm »

Following up on one of my later points about political activism in the United States, I want to point out that the word “conspiracy” is by-and-large used by groups of people who are outside the international political system. The “conspiricists” are seen to be conspiring because the critical parties who point fingers neglect to take part in legitimate political debates. Of course, at the same time, the “legitimate” political debates are steeped in spin, technical jargon and grandiloquence. Contemporary politics in the majority of Western countries are complex social dances where you must watch your words carefully or you will be cast from the stage. The system works as so to promote people who say exactly what everybody wants to hear, but once officials are elected they oftentimes have free reign over their decisions for their term.

Granted, in some countries officials and governments are not so stable. In some countries it is easier to replace elected officials or to replace the entire government. However, in many countries, especially China, the UK and the US, national security forces are sophisticated enough to prevent massive protests through advanced crowd control and crowd dispersement. The recent G20 protests in London are a testament to the effectiveness of these tactics. Protesters were prohibited from entering a handful of locations, separated into four zones, and then allowed to disperse at a rate controlled by British police forces. This ensured order, but also resulted in a massive imbalance in “the free market”.

World leaders, bankers and politicians did not witness the full extent of public rage against the current mishandling of the financial crisis. Consequently, they were not and will not be motivated to the extent that is necessary in order to realize the true roots of the problem that faces our global financial and political systems.

However, back to the point on “conspiricists”.

The debate rages between politicians, who are labeled as “conspiritors” by these external groups of people, who are labeled as “conspiracy theorists” by the politicians. The public is victim to the torrent of information that is thrown at them by both sides. The deciding factor for public opinion is the media, which is often, unfortunately, seen as a trustworthy source of information. This is based both on tradition and the media’s image of legitimacy. Since the politicians control the media, the public is left clueless to the real issues at hand. Oftentimes the media spins the story so well that the public’s attention is diverted completely to something completely moot and unrelated.

For instance: Georgia. In the US the story initially read along the lines of “Russia invades Georgia”. In reality, Georgia attacked South Ossetian troops in response to Russian troop movements towards the Russia-South Ossetia border. On FOX News in the States, the anchor interviewed a South Ossetian woman and her daughter. The daughter broke down in tears and begged the American people to realize that the Russians were helping them, and that the Georgians were the aggressors. The FOX News anchor cut to a commercial as soon as this happened, and when the broadcast returned, assured viewers that the girl was delusional from extreme stress and fear. The interview continued and the girl continued to plead her case, but the anchor cut quickly and in closing reassured viewers that the Russians were the bad guys. This video is available online if you do a little searching for “Russia Georgia FOX interview” or something like that.

In this case, the public’s attention is diverted to Russia, an unwitting victim of just action. The real demon is George W. Bush, who supplied Georgia with military aid to the extent that it felt confident enough to directly confront the Russian bear. No doubt the CIA or George were whispering in the Georgian leaders’ ears inciting the conflict. Very disgraceful. The rest of the world knows what happened, but Americans are conveniently clueless to the ridiculous image that George has painted on the outside of the bubble that is their life.
When this is applied to more significant issues like September 11th, then you have a similar situation projected onto a much more critical topic. The United States Congress went so far as to conduct an investigation on the events of September 11th and published a book, the 9/11 Commission Report, on the topic. The American public’s anger was quelled as people thought, “Oh, a book… well then it must have been Al Qaida.” The book is steeped in political rhetoric and highly technical legal jargon. I doubt that 50% of readers finished the book, and even then no more than 10% actually understood it. I did not read it, but several people I know who have told me that it’s the biggest bunch of bullshit ever. The evidence is in no way decisive and it is completely contradictory both to itself and to the media stories from September 11th.

This event led to a drawn out occupation of the Middle East that has extended American resources for nearly 8 years now, compromised the national image, destroyed the country’s legitimacy as a global role model and cost the average American taxpayer a bunch of money. When the reasons for such a critical national decision are spun by politicians and the media, there will undoubtedly follow a strong public backlash.  Once again, Americans are ignorantly blissful. Although some are frustrated and have taken action to try to raise public awareness of the disinformation / information campaigns run by the CIA and Washington, the majority of American people just don’t care. They honestly don’t give a shit. They would rather watch their reality TV shows and sitcoms, chase women and get hammered. When confronted with serious political issues like the Obama-McCain campaign or the 9/11 Truth movement, they just side with the mainstream media or their group of friends and laugh any problems away.

True.

Frightening but true. 

In closing, I want to point out that for the most part many politicians initially mean well. Once they become part of the game, they realize that in order to accomplish some thing, certain vices must be accepted. Even those who are seen as corrupt are under the impression that they are acting righteously. Personally, I refuse to believe that in any situation someone would think "Oh, by doing this I am doing evil." That is simply not rational and I am a strong believer of rational thought. In some way, Steve Blagojevich thought, "Selling Obama's senate seat is a reasonable thing to do", before he did it. I'm sure that there is a rationalization there. Either he thought nobody would find out or somebody told him that there would be no issue with it. It is nonsensical to think that he acted with the knowledge that someone would find out what he was doing and he would be sent to jail. That is completely irrational.

My belief here is based on the economic theory of Praxeology, an underlying principle of the Austrian School of Economics. Google it, very interesting stuff.



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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2009, 05:12:28 am »

Before I address your recent points, I want to clarify my previous post, specifically the discussion of the motivations for the Iraq War. I cited Western control of Iraqi oil fields and defense of the dollar as the global reserve currency, but I failed to complete my explanation of the latter point. I went so far as to explain the gold peg and its removal, but not justify this in terms of the Iraq War.

When the gold peg was dropped by Nixon in 71, the reputation of the dollar became staked not only on the word of the U.S. government, but also on the critical fact that the United States controlled the world's oil markets. The United States expressed this control through direct ownership of oil fields, a mutual understanding of the importance of the dollar's global hegemony through friendly relations (in the case of the UK and Norway), or imperialistic political influence (South American nations, African nations, the Middle East and Central Asia). The US's imperialism doesn't necessarily dictate that it holds a given oil exporter in political or military control, as in the case of today's Iraqi government. In many cases, it is simply the most efficient way for countries to sell oil, because (1) it is business as usual that the market for oil is in dollars, (2) oil is priced in dollars so it is easier to conduct transactions in this currency, and (3) oil exporting developing countries don't have an impetus to sell it in their own currency, because their national currencies are not in high demand (Brazil, Algeria, Nigeria, Venezuela, UAE, Canada, Russia, Mexico).

After dropping the gold peg, the United States effectively transitioned to an oil peg, whereby the legitimacy of the US dollar came to rest on the ability of US dollar holders to turn in their dollars for oil rather than gold. The US essentially bet that the market for oil would be strong enough to be able to sustain the credibility of its currency. Additionally, the US counted on the fact that three trends would continue: (1) the American people would be financially uneducated enough to understand the importance of a currency backed by gold as opposed to the weakness of fiat money and (2) the rest of the world would continue to demand oil in gold-like proportions, thus sustaining the importance of the dollar.

This underlines the importance of the current financial crises. If the Federal Reserve has indeed acted correctly in buoying the dollar and the American financial system, then the dollar will remain the global reserve currency. Unfortunately, what the Federal Reserve has done to fix the problem is go trillions of dollars into debt. In the past two years, the Fed has run up a debt of nearly $5 trillion. In the first 200 years of the existence of the United States of America, the Fed ran up a similar deficit. For this amount of money to be spent in merely two years is astonishing and frightening. Where is it coming from? Some of it is being lent to the US by countries with current account surpluses: Germany, Norway, China, Japan, Saudi Arabia, etc. However, there are only so many treasury bonds that the Fed can print before people simply won't want to buy anymore. For the vast remainder (several trillion dollars worth) of this debt, the Fed is simply printing the money itself.

Ben Bernanke (current Fed chairman) is counting on several things: (1) other countries will likewise be printing money, thereby causing all currencies to inflate at the same pace, preventing imbalances; (2) the rest of the world will recognize the importance of the American Dollar and buy up all of the treasury bonds, because in world without the dollar as a reserve currency, who will reign? -- note: this is slightly arrogant... only slightly; (3) the American economy CAN "recover" quickly; (4) other countries won't realize that the American economy really isn't doing that great... considering the fact that 20% of its profits have been generated by the FINANCIAL sector (that really doesn't produce anything of value and that's earnings have undergone an enormous bubble in the past 20 years); the American automobile industry, once a bastion of strength, is decrepit and refuses to accept technological progress and the United States is a net importing country that has run a current account deficit of nearly $800bn for the past several years. In order to pay off its older debts and the interest on its loans from other countries, the US is simply going further into debt. There is a name for this: it's called a Ponzi scheme.

Only a matter of time before this is realization goes mainstream.

To clarify your points:

I don't know if you are aware that I had posted much more info via "credits" to journalists or sites from net sourced searches along with some personally paraphrased edits, personal threads, viewpoints and comments on the NWO topic. As I said I would, most have since been deleted and due to softening the negative output, I am also editing posts that might remain....

Yes, I was confused as to the long list of websites that followed your first posts, mostly because many of them didn't work. My bad. I'm familiar with the vast majority of your reasoning and the information you have drawn it from because before I began to comprehend the views that I now am a proponent of, and have upheld in this discussion, I read deeply into 'conspiracy' and had a similarly negative perspective.

I realized, however, that the "conspiracy theorists" that you have cited are on one extreme of a debate, while politicians and "conspiricists" are on another. This debate does not take the form of a traditional left / right or good / evil forum, but rather one where the perspectives are drawn apart by those who feel like they have a voice on the international scene and those who actually do have a voice on the international scene. The "conspiracy theorists", those who accuse politicians of constructing a New World Order, by and large don't have a voice. They are on the sidelines. Much of their criticism is born out of frustration from the fact that they perceive that they have no control. The "conspiricists" on the other hand, those who work in government and who we see on TV, those who run the show, they do have the control. The battle being fought in this spectrum is based on the control of information to the public and how reality is interpreted. "Conspiracy theorists" deduce interpretation from fact with the intention to discredit establishing government, while "conspiricists" create information from reality in order to maintain order in society - to the "conspiracy theorists" this is seen as "big brother"-esque controlling. In some ways it is, in some ways it isn't. Without order society would be far more chaotic than it is now. At the same time, without transparency, there will always be people who feel left on the outside.

The "conspiracy theorists" are those of us outside the political games being played on Capitol Hill, Wall Street and other venues of political activity who have the intelligence, courage and strength of will to speak up and be heard. Some "conspiracy theorists" are just as bad as government, and misinterpret everything to their own individual perception of reality, then try to convince others that they are right (Kaibo... I am not pointing a finger at you here, you are not doing this at all). Others are fighting for more transparency and objectivity from our elected political representatives, so that society as a whole can take part in a debate without spin, disinformation and misinformation. Still others are simply trying to find out just what the fuck is actually going on. I'm in the latter category, I think you are, too, Kai.

However, as you have noted, in some of those posts I unashamedly expressed a strongly negative opinion of some reported objectives of radically extreme conspiratorial masterminds throughout history. Perhaps, in this current era, there are still some "dark horses" looming in the shadows to potentially bring forth fruits of destruction and desolation, in the fullness of times....

Agreed, among all humans there are those who have just, peaceful, constructive intentions, and then there are those who ultimately have conflicting, unjust, destructive intentions. Of course, those with unjust, destructive intentions probably ultimately have good intentions in some respect, but their intentions are bent by their culture. For instance, a warlord in Africa may have good intentions: protecting his people and his family and promoting their success. However this same warlord, being brought up in a culture where violence is a norm and where harsh control over others (imperialism / colonialism) is a way of life, may be every bit willing to commit what those in the West, or at the UN, would label as "human rights violations", and spin information in order to win the upper hand. His intentions are good for his own, but his means and methods are evil. In the long run, for the good of society and humanity as a whole, he has no respect or maybe not even any awareness, of the fact that on this planet, we are one race. Unity, mutual respect, justice and peace are all prerequisites to any kind of long-term progress, be it economical, technological, spiritual, cultural, religious, political, or personal.

There will always be and without a doubt are "dark horses" who thrive on chaos, and who have no care or understanding for the words "mankind", "society" or "humanity".

Your following points center around the idea of "sustainable social development", which I certainly agree with. 

It is interesting that you suggest "handing the world over to women and grandmothers". I read an article at one point, which I lost track of in all of my rambling readings, that also suggested that in the history of man, woman at one point was superior for a variety of reasons that are supported by scripture (including the Bible) and artifacts.

Above all there is always hope, for it is what fuels our souls and inspires us to continue a struggle towards attaining a quality of life that we can be happy with, for ourselves, for our families and friends, for our cultures, and for our planet as a whole.

Yes - the Jews have it pretty good considering they have the entirety of the USA in their back pockets. To them I say, well played, sirs, well played. I worry there however, because they have the capacity and audacity to utilize the US as their own national defense mechanism, and perhaps prompt a third World War. Especially given the insanely extremist rhetoric that Christian and Jewish conservative religious figures constantly spew forth concerning the apocalypse, this is frighteningly possible reality. That would be devastating indeed.

On your comments on Chinese foreign policy and the personality of Chinese leadership - I wholeheartedly agree that their governing system is worthy of great respect and legitimacy. A strong sense of morality underlies Chinese culture on every level. Looking back to the founding fathers of the United States of America - if you read the Constitution of the United States and the Declaration of Independence, you will find similarly respectable morals and ideals. I'm sure that looking back to the founding of the United Kingdom, and beyond that to the empires of Rome and Greece, those same solid, respectable ideals were present. Unfortunately, the idea of all empires rising and falling always applies. At the dawn of the 20th century the United States of America was, as the PRC is today, virtuous and seen as a land of opportunity and freedom, representing a quality of life that could outweigh all others. China's overall quality of life may not be near the US's today, but their morals are certainly in the right places, and development is on pace to provide a quality of life similar to the US's soon.

The main difference between the US and China is political ideology. Capitalism and communism. This infiltrates to the very core of economic potential. China is slowly privatizing its state-run operations. Economic theory and history shows that privately run corporations do much better, as they are free to operate outside the constraints of a government budget, government political influence and petty political squabbling. They are also given over to the hands of businessmen and entrepreneurs who specialize and make a living out of running an efficient business. Politicians, sadly to say, know little about economic theory or business organization, as their main focus in life is on consensus building, diplomacy and public image.

Yes, Mao was brilliant, but he also managed to destroy the Chinese economy. If you could rationalize that for me, that'd be great, because right now my impression of him isn't too hot. He was a great, charismatic leader, but he didn't know anything about economics.

Finally, I'd watch what you wish for. You wrote:

As I stated in clear terms previously: I support the "fractionalisation" and the multi-polarised trajectories and initiatives that are currently being exercised and experienced in the international arena. With more choices and voices of creditable value for future generations, then perhaps a multinationally and ethnically balanced harmonious accord can be struck.

History has proven that increasing multi-polarity on the global political stage serves to greatly increase the chances of war, as competing cultures vie for control of scarce resources and governments and people have greater confidence over their ability to win control over these resources. Global government does not necessitate a destruction of choice, voice of creditable value, multi-nationality or ethnically balanced harmonious accord. In the narrow-minded approach of many "New World Order"-conspiracy theorists, global governance may take the form of a tyrannical, one-leader dictatorship where human rights are ignored and uniformity is enforced by military strength. Global governance CAN be multinational, multi-ethnic and even handed. The United Nations is evidence to this. What it lacks is the political will from its members to give up national political and economic sovereignty to the extent that the United Nations could influence national agendas. This is mainly due to the fact that many national politicians and national citizens are frightened by the prospect of protectionism, which, sadly to say, still runs rampant through the international economy.

Have to go teach some English now... let me know what you think.
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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2009, 05:49:33 am »

Waiting for you to finish...
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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 01:05:44 pm »

Heyo,

After your first post, I had written this, so I will post it here, now...

On Roswell and UFOs:

Last summer I researched deeply into this field and was left terrified, shaking and wide-awake for several sleepless nights worried that Greys were going to come and take me away simply because I was privy to the information at hand. These readings centered around a speech given by William Cooper, an ex-US Navy official who gave a handful of lectures in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s before his death, a suspected assassination by the CIA. They were especially relevant because two relations of mine simply disappeared in the mid-‘90s, and his accounts of the US government’s behind-the-scenes actions mirrored my relations’ actions and their disappearance. No doubt you can find his speeches online, although the one I found was on YouTube, which unfortunately is blocked here nowadays.

I strongly suspect and would be easily convinced that the CIA runs an undercover space program and has had contact with other races. What sealed the deal for me was the crop circle at the bottom of this page: http://www.astrojourneys.com/cropcircles.html, which seemed too intricate and relevant to what I’d read to actually be faked, which apparently is very common (crop circle faking). I am also vaguely familiar with the “Age of Aquarius” theories, moreso with the most recent 2012 Mayan et al / Niribu theories, and while I recognize the opinion of the people who have spent time gathering all of that information, it is difficult to discern truth from it, as evidence to the contrary is also replete (maybe from government disinformation campaigns? who can be sure without omniscience?). Perhaps most importantly, to concede that the world is going to end would be to give up on life, and given the possibility that the world does not end in 2012, then whatever I would do while having given up on life now would simply be a waste of time, and a waste of life.

Which plays into my next point…

On the Islamic / Judeo-Christian divide: (Warning: heavy doses of esotericism and spirituality follow)

There are many theories concerning: whether this is an age-old battle is a contrived scheme of ancient religious doctrines meant to produce Apocalypse and whatever comes after Apocalypse, a natural progression of human evolution, a tool used by those in power to control the masses, or what have you.

Personally, I believe that as a race, we are bound together by the energies of this planet. Many of these energy fields have been discovered and documented by modern day sciences, but others are still hidden in our past by the mists of time. Monoliths and megaliths were at one point used for something practical, and are not just meeting grounds or mere tourist attractions. Many of those that are known in the present day lie on gridlines that are strongly related to the magnetic fields of the planet. I’m sure that this played some part in whatever purpose they had.

One thing that all of our major religions have in common is an emphasis on love and purity of spirit. This is written as the core idea of all conflict in all scripture – the tainting of man by impurities and man’s fight to remain holy. It is the purpose of life, and yet on this planet man is given the choice to succumb to all range of vices and sins. Everything, however, boils down to love. Not in the sense of the romantic attachment leading to marriage, but the pure, spiritual feeling that binds each of us to each other and underscores all benevolent, positive feelings that occur when you actually communicate with someone and “vibe” or “get along” with them. Love is just the word we use to convey this idea, and it happens to have connotations strongly related to marriage. Probably because most people only end up loving their significant other and children, sometimes not even their children…

Most “New Age” religions and books promoting a “New Age” philosophy, center around this idea of the purity of love. Of course, like all things human, some of these books are good, some of them are great, and some of them are just shit. The only one that I’ve read, and strongly recommend, is “The Four Agreements” by Don Miguel Ruiz. I have this with me in Hefei, so if you’d like to borrow it, I’d be willing to lend it to you. It’s a quick read at 100 pages in a friendly-sized font. His core point plays off of the idea of love being The Answer – basically what also forms the core of The Secret and its extensive marketing campaign. To me, the majority of religions are just baggage around this central idea of love, with the intention being to create jobs, establish order, and (originally) keep a written record of the history of man. Unfortunately, today’s Bible has proven to be nearly indecipherable in a historical sense to most people, however, and provides more of a guideline, which most people surprisingly seem to struggle to follow.

Moving forward, humanity is reaching a crises point where the fate of civilization hangs in the balance. Everyone predicts something significant will happen in the next few years, but only a few people can actually be right, since everybody predicts something different… and even those few people will probably be a little off. No doubt something will happen (that’s how time works, right? shit happens…). The most interesting and applicable predictions (for me) come from Ervin Laszlo, a Hungarian physicist associated with the Club of Budapest (www.clubofbudapest.org). Laszlo and the Club of Budapest are on the cutting edge of global societal macroshift, and devote their time and money towards the study of how society is changing in the 21st century. I strongly suggest you look into this, also, as is greatly relevant to the direction of humanity and the sustainability of the planet.

Personally, I’d like to do what I can to help humanity, and to help people. A lot of people don’t want to be helped, while others think they want to be helped but when people try to help them they refuse it, while still others try to help other people but their morals and ethics aren’t based soundly on pure love, so they only complicate, lastly others go out of their way to hurt. Whether or not apocalypse occurs in my lifetime, I will still enjoy this life as much as I can, because I know somewhere deep in my soul that I would rather love than hate. While I search for truth on this world, I’ll do what I can to live with love in my heart. It is healthier for me on all levels of reasoning, from personal to societal, from physical to spiritual well-being.

On Mao:

I appreciate the history lesson. I still think Mao was a shitty economist, yet a great orator / politician.

I’ve stated before that I do not disagree with socialism. I also do not disagree with communism, in its purest form. Lenin was right – that socialism follows capitalism. Europe is evidence to this. What is happening in the United States is evidence to this. Unfortunately, for the past 50 years during the Cold War, the United States trumpeted forth a message of anti-communism so strong that anybody who so much as whispered the word was outcast from the legitimacy of Western, democratic, capitalistic society, which inevitably won out against Stalinist communism. What a lot of people from the Cold War-generation fail to realize is that Stalinist communism is not communism. It is a tyrannical form of autocracy with socialistic economic policies. Communism in its utopian sense works.

On US resistance to sustainable technology:

I've read deeply into this, as I plan to get my master's in this field, and I just the other day, actually, I found this article that is the most insightful, precisely written, complete analysis of the situation in the United States with regards to sustainable development in relation to the planetology (term courtesy of Frank Herbert's Dune) of Terra (name courtesy of Blizzard's Starcraft) that I’ve found to date. In fact, it's so important, that I am posting it in its entirety here, to assure you read it.

GEOENGINEERING AND THE NEW CLIMATE DENIALISM
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009784.html

The Idea of Geoengineering is Being Used Dishonestly

Though we spend our time here at Worldchanging focused on solutions to the planet's most pressing problems, sometimes the politics around an issue become so twisted that it's necessary to address the politics before we can have a real discussion about the problems and how to solve them. That's the case with geoengineering. Some scientists suggest that certain massive projects -- like creating artificial volcanoes to fill the skies with soot, or seeding the oceans with mountains of iron to produce giant algal blooms -- might in the future be able put the brakes on climate change. These "geoengineering" ideas are hardly shovel-ready. The field at this point consists essentially of little more than a bunch of proposals, simulations and small-scale experiments: describing these hypothetical approaches as "back up options" crazily overstates their current state of development.

Indeed, almost all of the scientists working on them believe that the best answer to our climate problem would be a quick, massive reduction in our greenhouse gas emissions. None of this has stopped geoengineering from becoming part of a new attempt to stall those very reductions, though. The same network of think tanks, pundits and lobbying groups that denied climate change for the last 30 years has seized on geoengineering as a chance to undermine new climate regulations and the U.N. climate negotiations to be held at the end of the year in Copenhagen. They're still using scare tactics about the economic costs of change, but now, instead of just denying the greenhouse effect, they've begun trying to convince the rest of us that hacking the planet with giant space-mirrors or artificial volcanoes is so easy that burning a lot more coal and oil really won't be a problem.

Delay is The Carbon Lobby's Strategy

It's a central, yet often forgotten, fact in the climate debate that pumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere is incredibly profitable. For a small group of giant corporations (the coal, oil and car companies which we can collectively call the Carbon Lobby), business as usual is big bank. The difficulties of addressing climate change have much more to do with the political power of these corporations than with the technical challenges of building a carbon-neutral economy (a carbon-neutral economy being an engineering and design challenge that we already have the capacity to meet). For the last thirty years, the Carbon Lobby's strategy on climate change has been to delay. Almost every informed observer knows, and has known for decades, that the days of fossil fuels are numbered, but how quickly and how completely we shift away from them makes all the difference to these industries. They have a huge investment in oil fields and coal mines and dirty technologies, and each decade they delay the transition away from coal and gas means literally trillions of dollars more profits. Delay = big bucks.

The best way for the Carbon Lobby to delay that transition has been to make regulations and treaties that limit the amount of CO2 emissions politically impossible, especially in the U.S., where the Lobby's influence is the greatest because of their hold over the Republican party. That's why they put such emphasis on attempting to portray the science of climate change as inconclusive or hotly debated (despite the fact that their own scientists told them in 1995 that the science on climate "is well established and cannot be denied"). If they could make people feel uncertain, they could make it safe for politicians to actively oppose new regulations and treaties (a strategy laid out in the famous leaked "Luntz Memo").

Lying about the science made people uncertain; that uncertainty let the Carbon Lobby stall U.S. action; and by stopping the world's biggest polluter from participating, they stymied any real global deal on greenhouse gasses. The strategy worked, up to a point. But now most Americans understand that climate change is real and that it demands action. Our new president advocates strong action on climate; business leaders from many industries back him, as do most labor and religious groups; and foreign nations are eager to negotiate (European conservatives are even competing to show leadership on tackling climate emissions, rather than denying that those emissions are a problem). This emerging consensus on the need for regulatory action and effective treaties threatens to accelerate the transition away from fossil fuels much more quickly than anyone expected, so the Carbon Lobby is scrambling to find new reasons for delay.


continued...
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 01:09:50 pm by rht1786 »
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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 01:11:03 pm »

.... from above


How Geoengineering Becomes an Argument for Delay

Their new justifications for delay are simple. Taking advantage of the economic crisis, they call climate action a job killer. If the Right's anger and vehemence against the very idea of green jobs has shocked and confused you, well, understand that it's important that climate change be framed as a threat to the economy, and never an opportunity: the growing importance of clean tech industries and jobs to the American economy must be downplayed in order for this strategy to work (never mind that wind power already employs more Americans than coal mining). Look for this argument to increase in volume as Copenhagen draws near. But to really make their case for more delay, they can no longer be seen as outright opponents of climate action. They've got to have their own plan.

And that's where geoengineering comes in. The biggest argument for strong actions taken quickly is that delay or weak responses may put us in a position of facing rapid, perhaps even runaway climate change. The longer we wait, the more dangerous our position becomes. The only certain route to safety would be rapid emissions reductions, including programs for ecosystem restoration and other forms of sustainable sequestration to help draw CO2 levels down. But if we can be made to believe that megascale geoengineering can stop climate change, then delay begins to look not like the dangerous folly it actually is, but a sensible prudence.

The prospect of geoegineering is the only thing that can make that delay seem at all morally acceptable. In other words, combining dire warnings about climate action's economic costs with exaggerated claims about geoengineering's potential is the new climate denialism. The Carbon Lobby Spins Geoengineering Instead of Emissions Reductions The new climate denialism is all about trying to make the continued burning of fossils fuels seem acceptable, even after the public has come to understand the overwhelming scientific consensus that climate change is real. That's why denialists present geoengineering as an alternative to emissions reductions, and couch their arguments in tones of reluctant realism. One of the earliest political calls for geoengineering was Gregory Benford's essay Climate Controls, written for the Reason Foundation (you can find out more about their links to the Carbon Lobby and their role in climate denialism here).

Benford was explicit that he saw geoengineering as a way to avoid reducing CO2 emissions: "Instead of draconian cutbacks in greenhouse-gas emissions, there may very well be fairly simple ways--even easy ones--to fix our dilemma. ...take seriously the concept of "geoengineering," of consciously altering atmospheric chemistry and conditions, of mitigating the effects of greenhouse gases rather than simply calling for their reduction or outright prohibition."

Benford is far from alone. One of the major proponents of geoengineering is the American Enterprise Institute. AEI has a long history of working to deny the scientific consensus on climate change. They have strong ties to the Carbon Lobby (ExxonMobil CEO Lee Raymond served on the AEI board of trustees, and $1,870,000 from ExxonMobil helped fund their anti-climate work). Now AEI is working both sides of the new climate denialism street. They claim that climate action is too expensive (In a January paper, AEI's Willem P. Nel and Christopher J. Cooper argue that "The extent of Global Warming may be acceptable and preferable compared to the socio-economic consequences of not exploiting fossil fuel reserves to their full technical potential." In other words, "It's more profitable to let the planet roast.").

They also house one of the few funded policy centers on geoengineering, the AEI Geoengineering Project. The Geoengineering Project is run by Lee Lane. Lane is smart, and so he doesn't say outright that we should dump climate negotiations and trust in geoengineering, but you don't need to read too far between the lines to hear that's what he's saying. In 2006, Lane specifically advised the Bush Administration to urge a greater focus both on debating carbon taxes (we know how Republicans like to "debate" taxes) and on geoengineering as "strategic measures" to "block political momentum toward a return to the Kyoto system." He continues to put forward geoengineering as an alternative to real emissions reductions anytime in the near future.

As he said at AEI's recent geoengineering conference: "I think in response to all of those difficulties that certainly I am not the only person to see, a growing number of experts are becoming increasingly concerned about the need to broaden the debate on climate policy. What I mean by broaden it is to expand what we consider as serious climate policy options from what has been a very narrow focus on greenhouse gas emissions limitations, and indeed rather steep and rather rapid greenhouse gas emissions limitations, to consider a much broader range of policies that go way beyond simply attempting to make short run reductions in greenhouse gases." In other words, Lane wants us to believe that emissions reductions are politically impossible (never mind that he works at an institution which has labored mightily to sabotage emissions reductions treaty negotiations, and that he himself explicitly advised the Bush Administration on how to do the same), so we ought to be considering geoengineering as the "serious" option instead.

The Distortion of Geoengineering has Become Widespread

Turn over denialist rocks and you'll find political advocates for geoengineering a-plenty. For instance:

*The Cato Institute (denialists), whose senior fellow and director of natural resource studies, Jerry Taylor, says that if we end up forced do something about global warming, "geo-engineering is more cost-effective than emissions controls altogether."

*The Heartland Institute (denialists), whose David Schnare now advocates geoengineering as quicker and less costly to the economy than greenhouse gas reductions: "In addition to being much less expensive than seeking to stem temperature rise solely through the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions, geo-engineering has the benefit of delivering measurable results in a matter of weeks rather than the decades or centuries required for greenhouse gas reductions to take full effect."

*The Hudson Institute (denialists) advocates geoengineering as substitute for reductions: "Successful geoengineering would permit Earth's population to make far smaller reductions in carbon use and still achieve the same retarding effect on global warming at a lower cost. The cuts in carbon use proposed by international leaders and presidential candidates would have a drastic effect on the economy, especially since substitutes for fossil fuels will be expensive and limited for a number of years."

*The Hoover Institution (denialists) is home to not only to senior fellow Thomas Gale Moore, author of "Climate of Fear: Why We Shouldn't Worry About Global Warming" but also nuclear weapons engineer and original SDI "Star Wars" proponent Lowell Wood. Wood has become an outspoken geoengineering proponent and co-authored a recent WSJ op-ed in which he warns "But beware. Do not try to sell climate geo-engineering to committed enemies of fossil fuels," thus revealing that the point is to be friendly to fossil fuels.

And, of course, denialists' allies in the media and the blogosphere have been quick to take up the call. Conservative columnist (and climate "contrarian") John Tierney thinks geoengineering makes superfluous emissions reductions ("a futile strategy") and wants "a geoengineering fix for global warming," to provide an alternative to the idea that "the only cure [is] to reduce CO2 emissions." Wayne Crews of the denialist site globalwarming.org (a project of the Carbon-Lobby-funded Competitive Enterprise Institute) likes geoengineering strategies as possible "options apart from carbon constraint," while climate treaty opponent and "delayer" Roger Pielke, Jr. finds it encouraging that geoengineering's getting so much buzz.

It would be easy to go on. But the point is obvious: the Carbon Lobby, no longer able to deny the reality of climate change, is hoping to use the idea of geoengineering to undermine political progress towards reducing climate emissions through sensible, intelligent regulations and international treaties. Big Oil, Big Coal and the auto companies want you to believe that reducing emissions is too expensive to work, climate negotiations are too unrealistic to succeed, but we can keep burning fossil fuels anyways because geoengineering gives us a plan B. If you think that, you've been spun.

How to De-Spin Geoengineering

None of this is to say that megascale geoengineering should be a taboo subject. We need a smart debate here, where we explore the subject honestly and without industry spin. Here are six suggestions for returning reality to the geoengineering debate in these critical months leading up to Copenhagen:

First, Demand that bold emissions reductions be acknowledged as the only sound foundation for any climate action plan. The Carbon Lobby thrives on half-truths and obfuscation. Ethical people -- whether geoengineering proponents, opponents or doubters -- all need to be extremely clear in saying that a strong, rapid movement away from fossil fuels and toward climate neutrality is non-negotiable. Many leading thinkers on geoengineering (such as Paul Crutzen and Ken Caldeira) already make clear that immediate action on reducing greenhouse pollution (on both the national and global levels) is the first step, period. We should follow their lead.

Second, Point out that a climate-neutral world is realistic. One of the public debate's biggest failures is the extent to which we've let people be convinced that a climate-neutral planet is some distant, improbable fantasy world. It's not. We know, already, right now, how to dramatically slash emissions using currently available technologies, and make a profit. Economists (like Lord Nicholas Stern, former Chief Economist at the World Bank) estimate that the total cost of pursuing climate neutrality could be as little as 1% of GDP (far lower than the anticipated costs of allowing climate change to worsen). But there may not even be a cost: a great many of the actions we need to take (like rebuilding our cities and using energy more efficiently) return greater economic benefits than they demand, and when something pays you money, it's not a cost, it's an investment.

Third, Be extremely clear about geoengineering's real possibilities and actual limitations. Journalists tend to sell the planetary engineering sizzle, rather than serve the heavily-caveated steak. Advocates need to continue to emphasize that geoegineering proposals are still extremely early-stage, experimental and surrounded with unknowns. (On the other side, even determined opponents of geoengineering need to acknowledge the good intent and sound reasoning of scientists who are doing their best to add new insight to an extremely important debate.)

Fourth, Get the order right: zero-out first, adapt next, engineer last.. We need to be clear that because of the experimental nature of geoengineering projects, their use should be a last resort, not a primary option. Megascale geoengineering should not yet be part of any national strategies for addressing climate change, or a part of any offset systems in carbon trading regimes. We need first to drive greenhouse gas concentrations down with proven methods, and then begin preparing to adapt to the climate change we know we've already set in motion. We should only turn to megascale geoengineering as a last resort.

Fifth, Keep a wary eye on the Arctic ocean and other tipping points. Last year, scientists conducting research in the Arctic made a startling discovery: what might perhaps be formerly-frozen methane was bubbling to the surface of the warming ocean in alarming amounts. Their work demands corroboration, but if confirmed, this should cause us all to worry. Methane is an incredibly potent greenhouse gas and huge amounts of it are trapped beneath frigid waters and frozen permafrost, waiting perhaps to be released by rising temperatures.That methane could set off runaway climate change. Even if their findings are refuted, though, potential tipping points need to be watched. If we find we've blundered into rapid runaway climate change, some forms of geoengineering, however poorly understood, may quickly move from "last resort" to "needed option."

Sixth and last, Continue outing the Carbon Lobby and its cronies, and reject their intervention in the debate. Legitimate debates about the possible uses of megascale geoengineering should not include people whose institutions have been consistently and intentionally dishonest about science and science policy. The next two decades will have an almost unparalleled importance in human history, and the decisions we make during this time could have almost unthinkable impacts for millennia.

The world in which scores of future generations will live -- its climate, the plants and animals that make up its biosphere, the material possibilities of its cultures -- will to an astonishing degree be influenced by the choices we make in the next score of years. How we interpret the possibilities of (and understand the limitations to) large-scale geoengineering projects will help shape the clarity and velocity with which we act on reducing emissions and building a new, climate-neutral economy.

These questions matter too much to allow them be twisted by a bunch of shills for fossil fuel industries. We need to reclaim the debate about our planet's future, together.

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rht1786

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Re: New World Order" a conspiracy or fallacy?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 01:11:28 pm »

For an even further analysis of sustainable development, and also ending poverty, check out Jeff Sachs’ works – “Common Wealth” and “The End of Poverty”. I have “Common Wealth” here, also, and I can lend it to you. It’s a bit heavier than Ruiz’s piece, and heavy on the economics, but it definitely clears up what’s happening on the ground in terms of sustainable development and poverty reduction. Sachs is associated with The Earth Institute at Columbia University, so if you want to skip the read, then just check out the website, which looks nice and has some good talking points.

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I still feel I have a slightly opposing viewpoint than you, in that all people try to "do good", and that sometimes from an individual perspective far down the line from the decision maker, the effects of the action end up creating a situation that is not in line with what the original may have intended, even though that actor may have accomplished his goal. For example, George W. Bush wanted to create a freer and more secure world for Americans, and he accomplished this, but he also alienated Muslims, gave fuel to the fire of Islamic extremists, and persisted down a path of excess and greed that will have dire long term effects on all Americans. In the short-term, Americans have seen great prosperity, but we are sacrificing long-term growth and high standards of living. At the same time, he also contributed to the conspiracy theory community, giving them plenty of food for thought. Some people have a more immediate and personal circle of individuals whom they are trying to "do good" for, and do not take into account everybody on the planet. This concept of "social welfare" is something I expect may change as our planet's population reaches saturation. Here the concept of planetary consciousness comes into play, but this is an ideal that may or may not play out.

Having worked for the U.S. government, I can tell you that these people are not genius. Yes, there may be a few who are very intelligent, and no doubt the CIA, FBI and Department of Defense, among other government agencies, go out of their way to recruit the best of the best, but keep in mind that these "best of the best" are the best of the best from a certain system -- the American Ivy league system. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. -- these schools form a boys' club that defines generations. Simultaneously, they perpetuate a structured mindset that may be discriminatory to some, pompous to others, close-minded to many, and distinctly everything you could consider "American". They are culture hearths for the American financial and political elite.

As I've said before, there are people in positions of power on this planet whose policies have far-reaching influence, and who use this power towards means that the majority of the planet doesn't agree with. It's the responsibility of Americans to stand up and take control of their government, in order to prevent this from happening, both for their own good, and for the good of the world (which also reflects upon their own good).

This is a bit from Wikipedia I found the other day on decadence... it mirrors well what I've seen play out over the past decade:

Decadence can refer to a personal trait, or to the state of a society (or segment of it). Used to describe a person's lifestyle, it describes a lack of moral and intellectual discipline, or in the Concise Oxford Dictionary: "a luxurious self-indulgence". In a society, it describes corrosive decline due to a perceived erosion of necessary moral traditions (A society that discards unnecessary and outmoded values would not be considered decadent, although perceptions of "unnecessary and outmoded" significantly vary). Due to arguments over the nature of morality, whether a society is decadent or not is a matter of debate, though certain historical societies (such as ancient Rome near its end) are generally held to have been decadent, as decadence often leads to objective decline.

Decadent societies are often prosperous but usually have severe social and economic inequality, to such a degree that the upper class becomes either complacent or greedy, while the lower classes become hopeless and apathetic. The middle class may exhibit either or both patterns, or it may vanish entirely. Poor leadership is generally held to be both a cause and a symptom of decadence, as the lifestyle of a decadent individual is usually considered to be incompatible with responsibility. Applied to the arts, decadence implies an elevation of self-indulgence and pretension over effort and talent; when applied to science and the professions, it describes an erosion of professional ethics. Individual or collective greed is generally disliked in societies with strong moral beliefs, and for this reason, societies that nurture it are sometimes accused of decadence.

Societies that persist in a state of decadence may become unable or unwilling to commit to their own upkeep and fall into decline... Contemporary post-industrial societies such as the United States and Western Europe are sometimes accused of decadence, the argument being that consumerism, materialism, and selfishness have eroded traditional moral values of community, democracy, and the work ethic. Some critics, like James Howard Kunstler, have alleged that American decadence has reached such a degree that the society is or will be unable to solve its own environmental and ecological problems. In America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It, writer Mark Steyn argues that decadent lifestyles in the developed world (with the sole exception of the United States) have led to demographic and social decay.

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I read a great article yesterday on the current state of the global economy, which I refer you to, as it closely mirrors what we've discussed in this thread, and the evolution of the international system:

http://www.michael-hudson.com/articles/globalism/090614De-DollarizationDismantlingEmpire.html

I also recommend that you visit Chris Martenson's website, which has a great powerpoint presentation on why we are in the present economic situation, and is updated regularly with blogs and newsfeeds from a perspective not usually addressed by mainstream news media.

www.chrismartenson.com

Finally, I recently watched this interesting video on how the international economy has been structured for the past fifty years. This mirrors the first article, but is very well put together, with a terrifically straightfoward line of thought, very reasonable, very informative.

www.storyofstuff.com

Please, check them all out.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 01:24:51 pm by rht1786 »
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